Well it worked for Obama why not in the RPG business? The Escapist interview with Mike Mearls has sent many a 4E lovers are in a tizzy (That was Geek Related wording of the situation, I would say that have gone completely abused victim in a battered relationship). What can I say to this? Well a bigger, more respectable man would say they did there best and it just didn't work out for them. But what I say is WOTC is now discovering the important rule number #1 in a social media driven business economic with multiple choices to spend their dollars on: Don't kill the golden goose! Now I am not going to tell you, I told you so, but I told you so. Hell I kind told you so here, I definately told you here. What do I say to all of this? Should I gloat? Don't have to. Should I laugh at you over the bad business choices you made? Don't have to. All I have to do is the same thing I have doing from day one: Focus on making my buisness stronger by focusing on my customers needs. The customers didn't NEED 4e, WOTC WANTED 4E and WOTC got what they wanted. Now, they WANT their customers back, to bad those customers don't NEED them. The really sad point is I am sure some people internally who said doing 4E in this way was a bad idea and I'm sure the corporate environment of Hasbro were called "not team players" and were belittled for their views. Some of those people were let go and downsided over the years and some most likely left. And now you have Mike Mearls quoted saying, “Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said ‘Let’s get rid of all of our fans and replace them." That was never the intent.” I am sure is wasn't, but you didn't and now with Paizo in the mix you may NEVER get those people back. I wonder how Mike's Christmas will be this year form WOTC?
Now I guess we will start hearing the mumbling of 5E coming soon? Personally, it doesn't matter to me what happens to WOTC and 5E. It doesn't matter if WOTC and D&D as we know it fails and collapse and since business uphores a vacuum something will relpace it. I play and support Paizo and Pathfinder. One day this might change, as with WOTC, but so far so good. Talk to you later...
We sorta talked about this in our last podcast over at Flagons & Dragons.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.flagonsanddragons.com/
I can't say that the game is failing because it's a bad game. I think the game isn't having the success that 3E had because back then WoTC wasn't being manhandled by Hasbro.
WoTC lost it's connection to the players. That's why I was disenfranchised and jumped on the Paizo wagon. WoTC canceled Dragon and Dungeon magazine around the same time and that agitated me too. I know they made the decision to 'save money', but I think it hurt them in the long run as well.
Honestly, worse games have had loyal followings, even if those followings were small in number. The problem here is that the end numbers aren't what Hasbro wants.
Keep blogging and keep rolling those dice.
-Carl
It is a mystery why WotC can't get this together! This is Hasbro, the same company that keeps churning out "classic" and vanity editions of their board games, why not "Classic D&D"?
ReplyDeleteBaffling. Someone, somewhere, over there feels they know better than anyone else, and is being very stubborn about it.
Grind your axe much? We could go round and round arguing about which edition has better rules but that is a debate that will never end because neither of us will change our minds.
ReplyDeleteEvery edition of D&D has had many contrived rules that 'break immersion', so singling out martial daily powers and marking as definitive proof that 4E is bad is a bit silly.
In the end, 4E isn't as popular as 3E was at the height of its popularity but that doesn't mean it's a failure.
After all, the Red Box is aimed to "create an easy entry point into D&D" which 3E and pathfinder are decidedly NOT. Look at this guy's experience with Pathfinder http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_271/8103-Out-of-the-D-D-Closet
There is nothing wrong with repackaging your game to market it to a new audience. The question is - will Paizo try to create a newbie version of Pathfinder? I don't see many people new to RPGs trying to brave a huge hardbound rulebook like the Pathfinder main book when they can grab a boxed set or smaller soft cover books.
Heh @Al that's a good point, at Target right now there's like wood box "super retro" versions of all kinds of old board games. Next to the weird new shiny ones. Seems like the board game people know something the RPG division doesn't.
ReplyDeleteWotC's handling of 4E was a trainwreck from the day they announced it. I'm quite stunned at how they seem to keep making the worst gaffes over and over. And I am not even talking about the rules, just their handling of things. What a debacle.
ReplyDeleteI'm with Clockworkjoe. I read the Escapist article, and I'm thinkin' "More edition hate that ignores a lot of the crazy BS of older editions. "Daily powers don't make sense!" some scream, and in the next breath, theose same folks are touting how wonderful Vancian Magic is, with the same nonsensical "daily powers" idea.
ReplyDeleteI've been playing some RPG or another since 1979, so I've been around the block a few times. I've seen problems with every system out there. I'm one of those who has come to the conclusion that 3.x is so overly complicated and anti-role play that I've chosen to say that I'll likely only play 3.x/PF is if there is absolutely no other RPG available to play. But that's LPJ's bread-and-butter, and those who like those games are still my friends.
Could 4e have been handled better? Probably. There were a lot of promises made that went unfulfilled. Is it a bad game that betrays it's roots? I don't think so. But, as everyone know, opinions share a couple of traits with rectums: everyone has one, and they're all full of feces.
Me, I'm going to play and buy what makes me happy, and that's 4e. You enjoy what you want, and let's all remember were all gamers, and we're a community.
@Craig: If WOTC handled this like they did 3.0 and 3.5 we wouldn't be having this conversation. But they didn't. They did the exact opposite of what they did the first time and then they were surprised by the results? Who ever thought that was a good idea SHOULD be fired.
ReplyDeleteThe big thing is that WOTC lost the edition war, Pathfinder is proof of that. Do you remember back in 2002 anyone running 2e D&D at public cons. No. 3e was such an improvement over 2e.
ReplyDelete4e started with a lot of promises but like everything else about it. It only worked 1/encounter...
I will grant that 4e is a better entryway into Roleplaying than PF. But it was like (real)Red Boxes vs AD&D. You started with the box, then moved to AD&D because it was better/ cooler/ more interesting (helf-elf fighter/thieves ruled).
I would just like to point out (that per my sources)Hasbro had no idea that WotC was creating 4e until it was announced and they were not happy about it.
ReplyDeleteWotC issue is they said FU to their current support, they killed all their licences which disenfranchansed; You Killed Dragon and Dungeon (and FYI their always made money on them because they were Licenced products) because you felt threatened by thier quality and wanted to bring it in house and the reason you out sourced it is because you said you suck at doing magazines?
Also there would be no Pathfinder if you had not Cluster fucked the GSL because Paizo was all set to support it till they read it.
I don't want anyone to loose their job for a mistake but they damn well need to admit it was a mistake and they the people who got it right back in the day should be listened to now on how to recover.
@Steve: I am sorry but if I ran Hasbro and heard what you just told me about WOTC not knowing, the line of firing people would be quick and severe! I find it really hard to believe that Hasbro didn't know. If they ran anything like when I was at the Florida division of Macys, you couldn't do something like that with out the upper tier hearing about it.
ReplyDeleteAs someone once pointed out to me, I was fired as a customer by WotC with the release of 4E. I bought D&D products from 1978 until the end of the 3.5 era. Now I buy Pathfinder products. So far, Paizo hasn't tried to fire me. Until they do, I will continue to buy Pathfinder products. Heck, just today I posted a review of their Advanced Players Guide. Go Paizo!
ReplyDelete