I saw this over at Paizo’s boards and I have to just say it, this is totally revisionist history BULLSHIT! After telling everyone how good sale are with 4E, you NOW want to support Pathfinder? OK, let’s take this one step at a time…
“2001-2004: 80%+ of RPG'ers were playing 3E. “
OK This is true.
“2004-2005: Some gamers fell off between 3E and 3.5, but still 75% playing 3.5. “
OK this is true.
“2005-2007: D20 variants multiply. Mutants & Masterminds, Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, Castles & Crusades, Conan, others. Most of the market is playing some version of 3E, but it's no longer all D&D. Various d20 publishers begin to release their own stand-alone RPG's (e.g., Runequest).”
This is true and don’t forget you are part of this group who wanted to develop your own D20 variant system. Does Wicked Fantasy Factory, Etherscope, DragonMech or Xcrawl ring a bell?
“2008: Most, but not all, of the RPG market converts to 4E. Market is now split between 4E and many varieties of 3E holdouts. Other systems proliferate, including Hackmaster Basic and the 1E retro-clones. "Old-school" goes mainstream. Goodman Games remains the only "d20 company" still primarily supporting WotC D&D.”
I am sorry but WTF?!?!??!?!?! Only “D20 Company” still primarily supporting WotC D&D. Joseph, I respect you as a business man and gamer, but that is complete bullshit and you know it. When you heard about 4E you we down with WOTC quicker than a $2 whore. Looks like some revisionist history bullshit to me.
“2009: Pathfinder releases. Fantasy RPG market is now split between 4E and Pathfinder, with another big chunk split to the other stand-alone RPG's (Castles & Crusades, Runequest, Fantasycraft, upcoming Dragon Age, etc.), and another chunk shopping online in the retro-clone market (which I personally have a fondness for). “
…And with that split, Paizo got support from several third party publishers who saw that Paizo did actually like it customers and third party publishers. What a crazy concept. Anyone willing to sign the 1st GSL? Anyone?
“2010: What's a module publisher to do?”
Well I supported 3.5 and then Paizo and Pathfinder, so I don’t have to ask this question. I just put out product.
“My primary love remains adventures, but the market is so fragmented that the customers who played DCC modules in 2004 are now playing 6 different systems.”
CRAP!! See this is the part that makes me laugh, those people were playing those systems back then in 2004 too. It is just you were making so much money with 3.5 you didn’t care about them. Now that 4E didn’t make the splash that you planned on and committed your entire company’s future to, you have to do some back pedaling to keep that cashflow going.
“Here's something I've been thinking about. What if a DCC were written in "native 4E" but there were downloads to support other systems? Or...what if the DCC had generic stats ("Orc, 6 hp, axe, chainmail")...and ALL detailed stats were available as a download? So if you play 4E you download the 4E stats PDF...if you play Pathfinder you download the Pathfinder stats PDF...etc. Tell me what you think.”
I think you made a mistake by supporting WOTC so early with 4E. I think you went full board with them trying to grab a section of the market. I think your sales were not what you expected, plus WOTC leaving RPGNow and the US recession didn’t help Goodman’s cashflow. 2010 looks a lot different then you though it would in 2007. I think it is a good thing long term for the industry if Goodman Games supports Paizo and Pathfinder. But don’t give me this revisionist history bullshit. You made a business decision, supported someone and it didn’t work out as you planned. Now you have changed your mind and want to make some money supporting something else. Stop trying to put a spin doctor on this and just be truthful on this. We have all made mistakes on who or what we supported in business, including me. Build a bridge and get over it. Talk to you later…
Definite a colourful, and blunt, red. Er, read. Thanks, Louis!
ReplyDelete--Joel
Seems to me that he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. That last idea is so totally unmanagable, I can't even find the right words. You can't pander to everyone; find something to support and do it well. Give people a reason to play the game you love and support. Gaming's a hobby industry; it's not about slices of the pie. There's a reason most of us have day jobs.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I'm not a 4E fan (at all) and I really don't play (much) 3.x/Pathfinder at this point, but the point applies regardless of what system(s) you choose.
I would guess the previous D&D v4 comment from Goodman was an attempt to boost sales. It's amazing how people believe what they're told and how people will do what they are told is trendy. Guess this failed in Goodmans case.
ReplyDeleteI have to say I kind of like the concept, but the implementation would be a nightmare. Additionally, what works in one system may not work in another, which would translate to reduced return on the time investment to generate all the additional content.
ReplyDeleteIf they can pull it off, cool for them (and for the players who can always use more content). But I have my doubts.
As to the revisionist nature of the history as laid out, all I can say is well said Louis. Goodman Games made their bed and it appears they may have short-sheeted themselves.
Spot on. The more I see of 4e the more I want to wretch. If I wanted to play Final Fantasy, I would break out the playstation and play Final Fantasy, where every single character regardless has a magic power of some sort. The first game book of the new year for me was the PF Core Rulebook. For my fantasy gaming, it will be PF from here out, unless I go old school and drag out the 1e or 2e goodies. I threw my lot in with PF as a customer. Goodman needs to follow the advice given...drop the spin machine, cowboy up and admit he chose the wrong horse to bet on, and pick a direction to go. Then stick with it.
ReplyDeleteShadowheart, paizo forum haunter
Agreed as to the post. Lemme just finish up with this blast from the past:
ReplyDeletehttp://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html
JoetheLawyer, I am amazed how short people memoeries are! LOL!!!!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the concise analysis
ReplyDeleteAs a physician who is board certified in psychiatry
I teach my students that humans have
Only one unlimited capacity;
That is the ability to deceive themselves
Mr. Goodman probably believes that dribble
I would like to advertise on your sight
Please send details to
LOUISL2 at COX dot NET
I hate 4th Edition, but I hate even worse the corporate horse that stabbed the monkey in the back, raped MW of Krynn and butchered FW to prove a point. Blasting all the forums with Gleemax puddy was just wrong.
ReplyDeleteIt is true that at point of sales 4e nabbed 75% of the market at gaming stores, while Pathfinder only achieved 6%. However, at Amazon the Pathfinder core rulebook outsold all other RPGs for December, showing that there is a large demand for a game that, well, isn't 4e. Also these are in terms of takings - if your product is cheaper then by numbers you will sell much more ...
ReplyDeleteFrom what I have seen in gaming groups, what people are playing is about 50/50 between 4e and other d20 games, with 3.5 and Pathfinder the two largest of these by far. This is the important statistic for a producer of support material. I think they have realised that sales may be high on 4e, but that doesn't make it the game of choice for everyone, and by going that way they have simply isolated themselves from half the market. Which begs the question if the only major supporter of 4e with third-party material isn't doing well enough on just 4e, what are the buyers of all that 4e stuff actually doing?
And yes, 4e is a very different game to 3.x. You can take an adventure for 3.0 or 3.5 or 3P and make it work in all three. You can't do that for 4e, it's a very different game. Writing for both will not be easy.
interesting analysis
ReplyDeletei was very happy in Dec 2008 when I grabbed 25+ dungeon crawl classics v3.5 at bargain basement prices from Goodman Games
does anyone know whether Goodman Games had to agree to stop producing v3.x material
in order to receive third party rights to 4E?
although only a single game store
ReplyDeletecheck out 13 Jan 09
post @
http://warlockshomebrew.blogspot.com/