While going over old files I saw the original ad for the creation of Sinister Adventures and the preorder for Razor Coast and it got me thinkinking. I don't know Nick Logue personally and the quality of the work he does is second to none. He really is a expert in the area of gaming writing. But in the area of the business of running a RPG company, well I don't need to or have to beat him up over this, but he has fallen flat on this. Completely flat. The original post about Sinister Adventure and Razor Coast was on April 1, 2008. But now going on nearly 3 years, many feel that this project can be considered vaporware not matter what the Sinister Adventure forums might say. The last time his front page website was updated was October 1, 2009 with this: Announcing the Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook: Recipes for Games That Don't Suck.
[OK here comes Rant & Dig] You know what games really don't suck? Ones that come out. Sorry, Nick, but it is true. [/Rant & Dig].
Now what really makes me upset over this whole thing is that I offered to take it over the development to help get it out in June 2010 but Nick decided to go another way with it and get some of the Werecabagges to help him with it. Good move! What ever helps get it out is a good thing. And month later, still no product. So I thought, is this enough of a mess up to get people to never buy products from Nick Logue again? Since I don't know the amount of people who pre-ordered, who knows how much money was raised (and or lost) on this project. I would guess it was at least 100 people who preordered which meanss it generated at least $3,000 but I am guessing that figures was much higher. And weirder still, why does he still have the link offering that you can preorder this product even though you actually can't?
Here is a question to all these people reading this blog: What would it take for you to be considiered to be "burned" and have someone ruin their repution with you? Talk to you later...
Pre-orders and subscriptions are a bad idea when you're a company of one or two people. I make it a point not to sell anything until I have something to sell.
ReplyDeleteWell Louis I'm gonna be honest with you- as far as Sinister goes I'm feeling a little extra crispy. The hired help has (as they tell it) put up a valiant effort but it is almost like Nick doesn't want to put RC out, just one delay after another and months without even a word from Mr. Logue! Now in the wake of rampant spamming on the Sinister boards I think I'm just gonna give up and homebrew my own RC substitute. I'm really glad that some one as vocal as you has picked up on this situation.
ReplyDeletePeople still preorder RPG's? Heck, I don't even have enough confidence in game magazines lasting more than 3 issues to subscribe to anything lately. Sorry to say it, but folks should consider that an RPG preorder means two things: "I'm not finished with this (and may never be)", and "I can't really afford to print this (and may never be able to)".
ReplyDeletePreorderer Beware.
I preordered it. It was supposed to come out in June of 2008 originally.
ReplyDeleteI assumed it must be 90% done or so for it to be announced in April and due out in June.
Since that time, it has had a number of "release dates" along with secondary promises of other items (4 other books from Sinister as well as monthly "Indulgences"...and free indulgences for RC preorders).
It became patently clear months (years?) ago that NICK DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THIS COMPANY (and may not care about this project). He doesn't check the site, the forums are still "coming soon", the site has been down repeatedly, it's like pulling teeth to get info from him.
All in all, it's laughable.
I feel swindled by the man, frankly. Do I care about the $30? Not particularly. But I've invested way more than $30 worth of emotion and effort just trying to find out where the heck my product is.
Yes, to me his reputation is tarnished. Will I buy his writing? I will. (AFTER IT IS IN PRINT BY A REPUTABLE PUBLISHER.) If I meed him at a convention, will I want to say hi? No.
Final note: Lou Agresta has taken the reins over and provided better updates than Nick ever did. I continue to have faith in him. I do not have faith that Nick will ever provide him all the materials he needs to complete this. Lou Agresta, as far as I can tell, rocks. Nick? Not so much.
Why would you ever preorder any RPG material? Not only does it have a decent chance of never coming out but you don't even know if it's worth getting. If people would STOP preordering things companies would STOP offering them. A preorder is just another way of saying "I'd like to make this RPG product but don't have the money to do it, can you let me borrow $30 bucks?"
ReplyDeleteI preordered it, too.
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting for the free Indulgences. I'm willing to bet they won't happen.
I'm still waiting for Razor Coast.
It's not about the 30 bucks anymore, at least for me. It's about me wanting something back. I want RC. I've invested too much to just let this slide and settle with a refund.
I feel swindled and as soon as RC is done, I'll watch and see if I can get a refund for the AGMC and ES. I won't wait for 8 more years to get them.
Lou is the only reason why I still check the site for updates - his diligent work has proven that obviously Nick had almost NOTHING done when he took over. After 2 years.
I love Nick's writing, but at this point, frankly, I won't buy any of the stuff he puts out. Ever again. Not because I don't like his writing - I do. But as a matter of principle.
Quite frankly, I think that without Lou, we'd never see any RC - that way, we'll at least get one product. Lou rocks.
Nick doesn't care and frankly, lied to me in the forums more than once about the release date. The spambot-forums are a testament to his indifference. SA is an unmitigated disaster and could have been exactly the company to produce the dark and gritty content I wanted.
I was under the impression that Nick's main focus at this time is teaching in England. I can't say that I'm suprised that this dropped of Nick's radar.
ReplyDeleteI still remember when a patron of mine said about a product "He RazorCoasted Me"; That there set the tone for how I feel about Sinister Adventures. That they are bad for the industry.
ReplyDeleteI praise Lou for taking over the project and Rite Publishing would give him any help he asked for free of charge. If Lou ever has free time to work for Rite Pub he will have free reign and total support.
As to people bemoaning preorders for RPG companies, let me point at companies who do preorders and produce every project they say they are going to. Paizo (they run a damn subscrition based bussiness), LPjr Design (even after From Hell did not make its patronage goal LPjr still made it), Kobold Quarterly (has gone a hell of alot more than three issues, finished every patronage project), Tricky Owlbear (Look at Fearsome Foes, 100+ monsters you have no idea the cost of that for a small publisher like them), Evil Hat (Dresden Files), Adamant Entertainment (Icons!).
Now let me tell you about Rite Publishing (my company), we have NEVER missed a published release date. Book of Monster Templates, I said OCT and it was released the Tuestday before Halloween. Coliseum Morpheuon released on the 1st of November and the 101 Seris has released on the 1st of each month since it started 6 months ago. This is why I loath Sinister Adventures bussiness practices and respect LPjr Design.
Razor Coast is the Duke Nukem of RPGs; That does not mean that one should not Preorder Halo4, Star Wars Force Unleashed or any other game from an established company that puts its games out on time.
I don't know Nick, I don't think I've ever even talked to him online, but I've been following this particular story for some time. Basically, this is a perfect example of "What Not to Do". Any time we have ever put out a pre-order notice through IPR, the books have been ready to go. We have shifted our release dates on a couple books, but for logistical reasons and not because the books are not or would not be ready. I think a Kickstarter campaign may have been a better route for this to have gone (though was Kickstarter around back in April of 2008?).
ReplyDeleteHugo Solis
ReplyDeleteLPJ's comments abode are nothing but true... Personally I'm a big fan of Nick's work and I'm on the "crazy fanboy" mindset and as long as Nick delivers I'm happy with him... and I did preordered :)
In a way I'm kinda on Nick's shoes for I find myself following nick's steps on the extremely due deliveries, thou I do try my best never to loose contact with the commissioners, for I think that's the least one can do. Lou took the front line and he's up and ready to answer as much as he can, but its just not the same for in the end not even Lou has a release date.
The damage is done and Sinister may have lost a big deal of customers. Us rabid fans are still hanging to Nick/Lou's word and hope that it RC will come (eventually). As for myself, I won't preorder again but will certainly keep buying nick's goodies.
Now I just hope Nick finds a way to compensate the preordering customers to show good will and hopefully dave SA. I also hope I'm not the one Steve said that Razorcoasted one of his patrons, but I'll make sure I'll do my best to compensate...
How wonderfully professional of you Louis.
ReplyDeleteI commend you for using other people's struggles to catapult interest on your site.
How classy... "Buy My Product because I'm not Nick Logue."
I don't know, perhaps you're just upset because Nick didn't turn the project over to you.
Razor Coast will be released and it will be awesome!
Nick is awesome!
If it takes Nick three years to get a product finished, then it takes him three years. Maybe... unlike people who have nothing better to do but slag someone to get attention... Nick (like many of us) has other life issues to deal with. If that means he needs to wait before he can put out something top notch, he needs to wait.
Not every feels the need to force out a monthly piece of poop.
I've been playing RPGs for thirty some odd tears now, I'm in no rush for a turd.
The implication that Nick is deliberately toasting his fans is offensive, juvenile, unprofessional, and inciting ill will towards a project, that albeit is long over due, will be released.
Your speculation on the finances generated are also way off, and your insinuations that he some how made profit show how little class you have.
You hire Wayne to produce a cover piece and see what he charges you.
Toping things off- you turn around and slag the Werecabbages for not rushing the piece. FYI. Nick is a longtime member of the Werecabbages, as is Lou Agresta, as am I. Now you've dragged me into the ring. I helped Nick and Lou finished the last chapter of Razor Coast. Its DONE! But now its getting what it deserves. Development, a good layout, editing... you know the stuff real publishers put into a piece of work.
In the future, you might want to me more thoughtful about your remarks and who you call to the carpet. Sure, its unfortunate that Sinister is taking so long, but that wasn't the intent. Sure the natives are restless because of the preorders, but Nick needed capital to make sure he could get things fans wanted like Wayne's art and a professional layout. Its called trust.
This is a small industry... for gaming enthusiasts by gaming enthusiasts. Its not a profit business,(at least for many of us) its a labor of love. I have put my work into many companies that didn't pay me for years, because they needed the capital to launch product. Asking the fan's to cover that in a preorder certainly puts them in an awkward position, given unforeseen delays.
But you've insulted those who made an investment in Nick and his work. By doing this, you're implying these people have been taken, when they haven't. Those who preordered put their support in the right place. For you to imply otherwise is just downright insulting.
You know what really sucks?
ReplyDeleteWhen someone in this tiny industry of ours has to beat a dead horse to grab attention for himself.
Nicely done...and kudos for patting yourself on the back for it too.
While its unfortunate that Nick has suffered lengthy delays in releasing Razor Coast, I find your attack (and it is an attack) petty, unprofessional, and self-serving.
Seriously, what is your point here...
"By my stuff because I'm not like Nick Logue.?" What a cheap shot. Are you pissed because he wouldn't let you release RC?
Your comments are spiteful and uninformed, especially your insinuation on the financial aspects of things. Maybe when you hire Wayne Reynolds to do a cover, you'll know why people need capital up front- This industry isn't capital driven (for most of us anyway- I'm a game designer- not a "businessman"), its a labor of love. I worked for numerous companies for free, or the promise of paychecks months- sometimes years after publication. In fact, being able to spit out product like a fast food restaurant isn't the sign of good product. I've been playing RPGs for 30+ years now, I can wait three years for the promise of something I know isn't going to be a turd (and I have numerous turds on my shelf.)
Most insulting, you're deliberately inciting people who put their faith in Nick to complete the project. Your statements are akin to calling the suckers. They're not. It sucks that life through Nick a number of curveballs, causing the extended delay of the project.
But they know they put their faith in a great writer.
Your post sir, lacks class.
Next time, just do a product release like everyone else. Don't throw poop at someone (especially someone you know very little about) for your own self-aggrandizement.
Thanks,
Tim Hitchcock
who owes a substantial part of his career to always tactful, stellar human-being that is Nick Logue.
i'll do the refund bit when the exchange rate vs the dollar picks up.
ReplyDelete@Tim Hitchcock: I think you are missing the point of the post. Basically put, what is the point where you say enough is enough? It is great you have faith in Nick to finish the project but people put their faith in the project by spending money. As you posted in your post Razor Coast is done, so release it. I am sure the customers would like that. I am sorry you feel that way but as you can tell by the post there are a few people who feel the same as me, but did say it out loud.
ReplyDeleteProduct done doesn't mean product is ready to get published! I rather have a good edited piece of awesome work, than have a piece each month with LOTS of errors in it!
ReplyDeleteRazorCoast will be awesome. Nick is a good guy, he totally underestimated his RL-work. But he did what he could - find great people to finish an awesome piece of RPG-Work! It's done, when it's edited - I wish every publisher would think of this before putting out their stuff.
Lu Agresta, Tim and the others will make it worth every day we had to wait for it!
No need to talk bad about other publishers.
I totally don't understand what you wanted to achieve with this blog...
Totally unprofessional!
Louis, I really enjoy your work and blog posts but your words here feel very unprofessional to me.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Nick hasn't acted in a professional manner (although not because of any bad intentions but because he was overwhelmed) but I don't see how your post here is any more professional. If you weren't biased, I could empathize more, but you are coming off as sour grapes. You offered to buy Nick's ideas and he passed. I suspect you would have done a fine job and finished the project on time. I'm not taking that away from you. But attacking Nick this way while being so closely tied to the situation screams of unprofessionalism. It's upsetting because I enjoy your work and I'm now tempted to stop following you.
Early on Nick offered to refund pre-orders but the people refused because they wanted Nick to finish no matter how long it took. Yes, his promises of release dates were continually inaccurate and more hopes than reality on his part. He's an amazingly talented writer fist, not a business person (which is likely part of your point). But he isn't a scam artist or someone trying to do harm or take anyone's money for nothing in return. Your points are partially right but paint the wrong picture and are tainted by jealousy or something else personal.
I think mr hitchcock, you miss the point: no matter how much the OP of the article might be acting unprofessional for the article, the fact is Nick has acted WORSE and a much more unprofessional in the handling of RC and sinster adventures. And no matter how much you try and white wash it on profession layout and other things, the fact is that Nick failed at the most basic business premise- you keep in touch with your customer base. Even if its to say "there's no change this month". It shows that you actually give a crap about your product and your customer base.
ReplyDeleteThe silence from him speaks louder then anything you could say sir.
While calling Nick Logue out may have been a rough thing for one person in the business to do, and perhaps with unknown/questionable motives, I think people here are being unnecessarily harsh toward LPJ and overly kind to Nick.
ReplyDeleteSure, early on, one might have painted the favorable picture of Nick that has been painted.
But there are two big pieces of evidence arguing against some of Nick's dillegence/commitment to this project and or his company as a whole/caring for his fans and final product.
1. This was announced in April as being out in published form in June/July. Ok, about 4 months, on the long end? That changed many times, but there is a far cry and massive gulf in degree between "a few delays" and the amount of time this has extended to.
2. It is readily apparent to those of us who check Nick's website on a regular basis that he does not. Between the death and resurrection of the forums, the outdated information on his own site, the lack of posts by the site owner in his forums or shoutbox, and just the general state of the site currently with spambots, it's more than clear....this project (not just Razor Coast, but Sinister Adventures) is no longer on Nick's table.
In my estimation, Nick wanted to do this, took money for it, decided he didn't want to do it anymore, and more or less stopped working on it. I have zero confidence that it would ever be complete if the esteemed Lou Agresta had not taken the reins over.
To be honest, the most frustrating/infuriating component of this as a customer and fan has been the dichotomy between the expectations Nick tried to set and those he seems to have had for himself. I don't want to say he lied, for I don't believe he did. There was, however, a clear "it's gonna be great, and out soon, and you'll love the awesomesauce" message, while at the same time he admits to long periods of not working on it and clearly did not even check his own website.
LPJ may have been a bit out of line, especially given his own personal potential involvement with the project. On the other hand, I think Sinister is, to paraphrase another poster, "The perfect example of how not to run a business/website/gaming company."
Louis,
ReplyDeleteThere are a number of people who felt like you and that's fine.
A customer is always right, they're entitled to feel angry, or disappointed. Especially given the circumstances.
I talked to a number of those people, they voiced their opinions... to me, to Nick, on forums, etc. Those people wrote Nick, they got their money back if that was their desire.
The difference is none of those individuals have a thing to gain by slagging Nick in a public forum. You do. You're a fellow publisher and one of his competitors.
The RPG industry is a tiny industry, comprised of many friends attempting to create and build shared realities. People trying to make peoples lives better, or at least more fun. It is an industry where we work to support each other, not bleed each other in public forums in hopes of stirring the pot, inciting people and attracting attention to your company.
If that wasn't your intent... then you really need think about your blogs before you release them. That's what's truly hurtful to this industry.
Hi Louis,
ReplyDeleteNick has apologized and offered to refund any preorders multiple times. My understanding is any request for a refund has been fulfilled. But many people don't want a refund as they hope Razor Coast will one day be released and want to support Nick through his difficult times.
Best,
John
@Tim Hitchcock: I believe when people do things that are wrong, INCLUDING ME,we SHOULD talk about them in the open and above board. Which we are doing right now on my blog. I didn't have to place your responses up here. I could have deleted your comment and only put up ones that are positive to my position but I didn't. I choose to to make sure everyone got a fair understanding from both side of this argument. If you think this is hurtful for this industry, how do you think people feel when they have placed up money and not gotten what they paid for? We need to police ourselves and be REALLY transparent to what we do in this industry. You have to raise people up when they do good things, but we also have to keep them accountable when they do the wrong thing. That will truly help this industry.
ReplyDeleteI don't really know that much about either LPJ or Nick, but I do know one thing. The tone of this blog and LPJ's responses just ensured that I will never buy something written by him again. He was unprofessional and a jerk in my view. Nick did something stupid as well, and thus I will never pre-order something written by him either, unless another company is doing the management. Like Paizo, as I have run an adventure written by Nick and was impressed. But that's my own view.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why LPJ thought posting this was a good idea. I have never purchased anything of yours and now never will. You are not smarter than me or anyone else. You're a self-aggrandizing jerk, who probably made fun of kids in wheelchairs when you were in school.
ReplyDeleteWhat's a "repution" and how did Nick use it to kill something? Is it some sort of weapon of mass destruction or something?
ReplyDelete